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Ever wondered what air traffic controllers actually see on their screens when you check in? Or why they sometimes seem frustrated with certain pilot behaviors? In this eye-opening conversation, Marcus Miller (aka Prop Hat Cat) from Houston Center pulls back the curtain on the world of ATC.
Marcus shares his unique journey from controlling virtual aircraft in his mom's bakery at age 14 to managing real traffic at one of the nation's busiest centers. We dive deep into:
What Controllers Actually See:
Making Controllers' Lives Easier:
Demystifying Phone Numbers (Brasher Warnings):
Controller Pet Peeves & Favorites:
The Future of ATC:
Plus: Academy training secrets, the personality test you never knew existed, why Florida is the "wild west" of aviation, and the real reason controllers need your help with flight following.
Whether you're a student pilot, airline captain, or aviation enthusiast, this episode will transform how you communicate with ATC and understand the critical work happening on the other end of the frequency
Pilot to Pilot is the podcast for anyone who flies — or dreams about it. Host Justin Siems sits down with airline captains, bush pilots, CFIs, and everyone in between for honest conversations about the path to the cockpit, the grind of the career, and the love of flying that keeps us coming back. Whether you're a student pilot chasing your first solo or a captain with 20,000 hours, there's a seat for you here. New episodes weekly.
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What's up?
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My name is Marcus Miller, also
known as Prophat Cat on TikTok and
Instagram and other social media.
I'm an air traffic controller.
I work at Houston center, so
I'm a radar controller and I don't
speak for the FAA or for natca.
These opinions are my own.
AV Nation what is going on?
And welcome back to the Pilot
the Pilot Podcast.
My name is Justin Seams and I
am your host.
Today's episode is with Prop
Hat Cat, not Prop Hat atc, which
I objectively think it should
be, but Prop Hat Cat, which we get
an explanation later in this
podcast but is anything and everything
atc.
So there are gonna be a lot of
questions and I actually told Marcus.
I was like Marcus, dude, we
should probably do this more often.
So maybe we'll have A
recurring ATC podcast where we can
answer your question.
We can see and have some
dialogue between ATC and a pilot
just so we can clear some
things up.
But I think it's very helpful,
you know, like, what do you see when
an airplane's talking to you?
What's your least favorite
thing a pilot does?
What happens when you give out
a phone number?
I even asked him how many
phone numbers he gave out, which
his answer did surprise me.
And I won't tell you what it is.
You'll have to wait to listen
to find out.
But I appreciate Marcus for
coming on.
It's always great to talk to
someone who truly loves their job.
So many ATC controllers, you
know, your only interaction with
them is.
Is talking to them over the air.
So it's fun to get to know someone.
It's fun to hear their
background and hear about their training,
because their training is tough.
It is intense.
AV Nation.
I hope you really do enjoy
this podcast.
And if you do, you can
subscribe to the podcast.
You can follow us on Instagram.
Check out the magazines.
I don't know if this is going
to make the video part, but we actually
did check out the YouTube
because we do have a pretty cool
background.
With all my magazines up, not
all of them.
I mean, there's like 50 of
them up, which I have like 1200 pounds
in my garage now because
shipping issues, to say the least.
We are going to ship out the magazines.
I. I say we.
I am going to ship out the
magazine myself.
I think the first hundred
orders have been shipped and then
the rest will be up to me.
So I just got the magazines in.
They should be being shipped
out hopefully tomorrow.
I say this on January 13th.
So hopefully January 14th,
January 15th, I will ship out the
rest of the orders.
Might take me all day, but
we're going to do it.
And I can't wait for you guys
to see the magazine, hold it in your
hand and share it because.
Because I need word of mouth.
Word of mouth is really going
to tell people how great this magazine
is and how nice it is.
So if you have any reviews for
the magazine, let me know.
I'm going to activate the
reviews on the website as soon as
people start getting the
magazine in their hands just so I
can make sure it's people that
actually order the magazine that
are leaving reviews.
But I really hope you enjoy it.
And this is the first time you
hear about a magazine.
That's right.
Re released the magazine.
13 articles, 13 podcasts.
The podcasts are a little bit
different than the articles themselves.
So you're going to want to
make sure that you listen to the
podcast and read the article and.
And the photos are sick.
We're currently working on
volume two of the magazine, so it
is a quarterly magazine.
You can sign
up@piloterpilothq.com Mag Aviation
I don't want to take up any
more of your time, so any further
ado, here's Marcus from Prop
Hat Cat.
Marcus, what's going on, man?
Welcome to the Pilot the Pilot podcast.
Hey, thanks so much for having me.
This is.
This is awesome.
Yeah, man.
It's a.
It's been a long time since
I've had anyone ATC related or just
someone that was the last
person I had.
They actually were a pilot first.
So they flew for the regionals
and then they're like, you know what?
I think I like being home more.
I'm gonna go be an air traffic controller.
That was probably eight years
ago, so a lot has changed.
You know, there's people
probably have more questions.
I'm sure we can kind of talk
about what the process was, but we'll
start out with, I guess one
question I'm interested in is, are
you a pilot too, or are you
just a controller?
You know, I have about seven
hours in a Skyhawk.
And, you know, originally I
started out, as I'm sure a lot of
people did, starting on flight
simulators and doing things like
that.
And I got into.
Into the tiny airplanes and I
figured out that I get airsick in
tiny airplanes pretty, pretty quickly.
Of course, I was learning to
fly in Texas in the summer, so that
probably wasn't the most
conducive environment to fly.
But I still love aviation and
I still wanted to be a part of it,
even if the flying thing
wasn't, even if my body was rejecting
the flying aspect of it.
And so I kind of got
interested in air traffic control
and I guess kind of the rest
is history there.
It's awesome.
It's something that I've
wanted to do since the eighth grade,
so it's really cool to finally
achieve that goal.
You wanted to be an air
traffic controller since eighth grade?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you?
I don't say this because,
like, trying to like, minimize that,
but I don't think I've ever
heard anyone say they wanted to be
an air traffic controller
since they're in eighth grade.
Yeah.
Nobody wakes up one day and is
like, I want to be an air traffic
controller.
Yeah, yeah.
It's what you did and you did it.
So kudos to you.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's pretty cool to kind
of look back on my life and see how
these different steps have led
me to, to this job and to this career
and to where I am now.
So goal was pilot, took a
couple flight lessons, realized not
gonna work for you.
Yeah.
Then what led into atc?
Were you just like, I love
aviation so much, I just want to
be a part of it.
So that could be, you know,
working at the airport, it could
be working at the ramp.
It could be kind of just
looking into all jobs that are aviat.
Kind of talk about how you led
down this path.
Yeah.
So eighth grade started.
I got flight simulator 10 FSX.
I'm sure a lot of people have
used that and really loved kind of
the multiplayer aspect of that.
Met some people on there.
And then there was an air
traffic control kind of thing that
you could do.
So that led me to kind of
researching more into how can I do
more air traffic control esque
stuff with Flight Simulator that
led me to Vatsim.
I don't know if you're
familiar with that.
It's the Virtual Air Traffic
Controller Simulation Network.
And so I started that eighth
grade, ninth grade.
And that's kind of been kind
of what inspired me to do this because
like, wow, this is actually
like, I'm okay at this.
You know, I'm not terrible.
I like reading these regulations.
I like doing this stuff.
I like controlling these
airplanes, these fake airplanes.
Right.
And actually I kind of have
two passions.
One is aviation and air
traffic control, and the other is
like musical theater and
acting and theater stuff in general.
So I originally started out
getting a BFA in musical theater.
And then I was like, you know what?
The starving artist life
probably isn't for me.
I like to eat too much.
And so I think I'm going to try.
I'm going to pivot and do
this, this air traffic thing because
I've been doing it since the
eighth grade.
I went to college for a little
bit for theater.
And then I was like, well,
what if I can actually be a controller?
You know, this has always been
kind of just like my hobby that I
did behind the scenes.
But then I was like, what if I
can actually like do this as a career?
And so I kind of looked into
it and a big aspect of my life is
I just keep doing things until
somebody tells me no.
Right.
I just keep like, can I do this?
Yeah, sure.
How about this?
Okay.
And this?
All right.
And then I'm at Houston center
controlling airplanes.
And it's.
It's Kind of, it's, it's
pretty surreal really.
Going from controlling.
So my mom used to own a bakery
and we didn't have Internet at the
house.
So the, the bakery computer is
the computer that I use to control
airplanes on, you know, 13,
14, 15 year old Marcus selling cupcakes
in between clearances, you
know, which, which there.
You guys still there?
Yeah.
Hang on.
We got a big order.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All aircraft stand by.
I've gotta help somebody take
this wedding cake out to their car.
But my mom was very supportive
of it.
Supportive of it.
And you know, she's working of
the day, so I was just hanging out
at the bakery.
Controlling airplanes.
Yeah, but it's kind of like
the Enders game thing where people
would come in and be like, is
this real?
Are they, is this kid actually
like controlling airplanes?
Like.
No, no, no, no.
It's, it's, it's all fake.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, well that's true.
That's.
Yeah.
Ender didn't know that.
Right.
All of a sudden is real.
Yeah.
So that's kind of game.
What a book, man.
Yeah.
What a throwback.
Love the movie.
Movie.
And so that's kind of what I
guess got me into air traffic control.
And then I went to, I went to
Letourneau University for aviation
management and air traffic
control concentration.
And I loved it.
You know, I was not a very
strong high school student.
I was terrible in math and
terrible and all this stuff.
And then you go to college and
you actually are doing stuff that
you are interested in and that
you want to be a part of and that
you are like actively want to
have a job in it.
It helps your motivation, I
think, to do better there.
And you know, the air traffic
control program there was really
small and so you got a lot of
one on one help.
My teacher was a former
controller and I just, I just loved
that whole college life
experience kind of thing.
And there's something to kind
of finding your passion, right?
And everyone finds their
passion at different times in life.
It could be in middle school,
could be in high school, could be
after college, it could be 40
years old.
Be like, hey, I want to be a pilot.
Cool.
Found it.
Let's go.
Yeah.
But you'll realize when you
finally find that passion, you have
kind of a spark for learning, right?
Like you want to be everything
and anything about it.
Like reading the paper,
reading a magazine, have to say the
magazine.
It's not really this magazine,
but you just like, you like to read
the stuff, you like to be
involved and you and you realize
that, you know, I wasn't dumb,
I wasn't a bad student.
Well, maybe you're a bad student.
Maybe I was bad student.
But like, once you find what
you're interested in, like, sky's
the limit.
So if you historically are
struggling in school, if you don't
like what you're doing and you
just realized you haven't found what
you like, like, don't let that
think that you can't do something.
You can still totally do it.
For sure, you need to find
what it is, which is much easier
said than done.
Right.
Not everyone has the ability
to know they're going to be an air
traffic controller or be a
pilot at a young age.
But if once you find it, you
know, you just.
Just go all in, Just go out
until you.
Like you said, someone tells
you you cann this anymore.
It's like, all right, I took
this as high as I can go.
This is it.
Yeah, but that's really cool.
And shout out to your mom too, right?
I think I have a four year old
at home.
So there's something about
like fostering an environment for
learning, fostering an
environment for your kid to kind
of figure out what they want
to do.
Yeah.
Because, you know, obviously
every parent has an idea of what
their kid might do, but
understanding that that's probably
not going to happen, your
kid's probably not going to follow
your footsteps to a T. They
could, they could, they might.
You never know.
But they could choose
something else.
Like your mom's probably never
thought you're going to be an air
traffic controller.
Maybe she thought you' to be a
baker or musical theater like you
said, but here we are.
Yeah, it's.
It's definitely.
I'm very fortunate to have her
as my mom for sure.
Absolutely.
So letourno, I knew, I think
two people that went to letourneau,
but yeah, Letourneau is a
pretty big.
It's a Christian aviation school.
Yeah, they like to say it's.
Yeah, they like to say it's
the Christian Polytechnic University.
Okay.
The, like, I went to Ohio State.
We are.
Yeah, the Ohio State.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It might be a lawsuit there.
You gotta be careful using the.
Yeah, it's.
It's a really big aviation and
engineering school.
A lot of.
I think the girl to guy ratio
is like 6 to 1 or guy to girl ratio,
I guess.
Yeah.
So you're not going to find
the love of your life there.
Well, education majors, you
know that we had a joke ring by spring,
you know, so.
Oh, you're an education major.
I need a wife.
That was, that was the joke.
That's pretty funny.
But no, I, I thoroughly
enjoyed my time there and, you know,
a lot of my friends were
pilots in the, in the aviation program
and a lot of them are now, you
know, they've.
I've been out of it for so long.
They were at the regionals,
now they're at the main lines.
And so it's, it's cool
sometimes because they'll be flying
through and they'll be like,
hey, is this Marcus?
I'm like, oh, hey, this is Josh.
Like, awesome.
Cool.
It's like, that's so cool.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I got to put you back on route.
Sorry, I got a traffic
management route to.
I didn't like you, by the way.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's cool, man.
So Letourneau.
So Letourneau has a
specialized ATC course there.
They did, they did.
In 2018.
They kind of shut it down
because the FAA changed a lot of
their hiring policies or whatever.
It's just been a really big.
The FAA doesn't know what they
want and so all the other places
don't know what they want.
But now I think they've kind
of come into maximum hiring.
All this stuff.
These enhanced CTI programs
are now kind of taking place because
used to.
So CTI was the collegiate
training initiative and it was basically
a partnership between the FAA
and these colleges.
And basically the FAA said,
here's the academy material for basics.
The basics course.
It's a four week course at
Academy in Oklahoma City.
And you can teach this in a
two year associate's degree.
Okay, cool.
You.
You pass the CTI program and
you basically get a Skip basics at
the academy and go straight
into either a terminal track, which
is like tower and tracon, or
the enroute track, which is what
I did.
So it's kind of supposed to
save the FAA money because now they
don't have to train people at basics.
And it's supposed to save you
time because now you can just go
straight into the thing.
Instead of a three month
program, it's a two month program.
And so that was the idea
behind the CTI program.
And then 2018, 2019 came
around and they're like, well, we're
not really going to give any
priority to CTI graduates now.
Everybody's just going to be
either off the street or military.
Okay, cool.
So that kind of, you know, all
these colleges who have spent a lot
of money developing these
radar labs and tower labs and stuff
like that, now they're kind of
like, well, I guess we're going to
pivot.
And now our radar lab, our
tower lab is a UAS lab.
So teaching drone stuff, which
is perfectly fine.
You know, ultimately I think
that was a good move on their part.
But now the FAA's come back
and be like, okay, now we have enhanced
cti, which is basically
teaching Academy both academy basics
and the terminal or and the
enroute track at the college.
So you don't even have to go
to Oklahoma City now you're evaluated
by FAA evaluators on your eval day.
It's kind of like a dpe.
You know, I did my dispatch
course as well, so we had like a
dispatch person that would
come in.
It's very similar to that.
And once you pass your cti,
your ECTI program, you're basically
direct hired to a facility.
So you no longer have to go to academy.
You can basically go now train
to be an air traffic controller at
a facility.
So it's supposed to help with
the throughput of academy because
now you don't have to go there.
And it's supposed to, you
know, save money for the FAA because
now they're not having to pay
you to go there.
Right.
You're paying to get this certification.
But sure, they love that.
Yeah, but you know, it's a
guaranteed job if you pass.
You know, like now you still
have to pass all the pre employment
stuff.
There's a security clearance
and a medical background and psychological
evaluation and you still have
to take the at, so which is like
the air traffic Standard
aptitude test something or other.
So you still have to do all of
the employment stuff leading up to
the academy, but you just
don't have to go to the academy now
because you did it at your
college and you know, it's a two
year degree or maybe a three
year degree at a college, whereas
it's a three month program at
the academy.
So if you weren't successful
at the academy because it was just,
it's just so information
overload and you don't have time
to forget things because you
can't now it's giving people who
maybe need a little bit more
time to understand the material,
time to understand the
material which will hopefully make
them successful and then you
get to your facility and you are
hopefully successful there.
Yeah.
Do you think that anyone, is
that like a track, is that possible
to go to the academy then go
to college and try it or do you think
there's kind of like a black
mark or like a, there's a You're
probably, you're not getting
hired because you've washed out of
the facility or not of the
facility at the academy.
I really don't know.
It's such a new thing.
I don't, I don't know of
anybody who's done that yet.
Now, there is another thing
called Advanced atc, which is kind
of like you get your Control
Tower operator certificate, it's
a contractor where you get
your CTO so you can work at one of
their contract towers.
You get 52 weeks of experience
there, and then you can be direct
hired to the FAA because you
just need 52 weeks of control tower
experience.
Okay.
I have heard people who have
failed Academy and did that, and
now they're at a contract
tower about to flow to the FAA and
a federal tower.
So there, there's ways around
failing Academy.
It's not the end of the world.
And, you know, it's, it's hard.
Academy is intentionally hard
because that is basically the interview
process for this job.
I.
So I had three interviews
whenever I worked at Chick Fil A.
I had three interviews
whenever I worked at Chick Fil A.
I had no in person interviews
for the faa.
The Academy is basically your
in person interview to see if you
can do the job or not.
And that's basically what it is.
If you make 70 or above, you
can do the job.
Theoretically, if you make
below 70, you can't do the job.
And so good luck.
Next.
You know, it's, it's, it's
very point value based as opposed
to personality or personable
based, which, you know, for a customer
service job is an interesting
metric to retain and hire people
with.
Right?
Yeah.
And so then you get people who
are not.
Don't have the best people
skills as controllers, which is fine.
You don't have to have a good
people skill.
But I'm sure you've flown with
controllers who are really happy
and go lucky.
And you're like, wow, this is
a great place to fly.
And you've flown with people
who are like, why are you talking
to me?
Get off my frequency.
I know radar service, Terminator.
I'm sorry, I literally have to
do this right now.
Yeah.
Would you rather me not talk
to you right now?
Yeah.
And so I don't know.
I think the, the personality
is such a big deal with air traffic
controllers that a lot of
people don't think about.
And doing the job is, I mean,
obviously the job.
Being able to do the job, but
also being able to, like, enjoy your
time that you're controlling airplanes.
And being able to enjoy the
people that you're around goes a
long way because you're
working with those people for a long
time.
And so you want people who are
personable or at least aren't sandpaper,
you know, very abrasive, very
rough and coarse because, you know,
you get to change frequencies.
I gotta work with these people
for the next 25 years, you know?
Absolutely.
So you didn't have to go to
the academy doing letourneau.
I'm sorry, say that again.
You did not have to go to the
academy since you went to letourna.
No, I did.
Yeah, you did.
Okay.
So you did have to.
Okay, yeah.
The ecti thing is really,
really new, like, in the past year.
All right, so letourno
academy, did you feel like having
that training and doing what
you did at letourneau?
Do you think that set you
apart and made it much easier?
Or at the end of the day, is
it still like, man, this is a lot
of information in three months
to try to get this all done?
So at letourneau, we just had
a tower and a tracon simulator, and
I got hired to be a center controller.
And they are two completely
different things.
But letourneau teaches you how
to read the SOPs, how to read LOAs,
how to understand FAA
questions, and how to study, which
is super important at the
academy, I basically.
So I graduated letourneau.
I worked for them for a year
teaching dual credit aviation classes,
and then I got my firm offer
letter to go to the academy.
I told letourneau, hey, I'm
going to the academy.
Okay, cool.
I was unemployed for a week,
and then I went to the academy.
So it was basically straight
from higher education to higher education.
There are some people in my
class who are 29, 30 who had been
out of college for so long
that they had forgotten how to study.
They had forgotten how to
actually retain and learn information,
which you don't think about.
But whenever you've been out
of education for so long, I get it
right?
You do the same thing every day.
You.
You work at, you know, I don't
know, what's a.
What's a boring cubicle job?
And you're just typing in
spreadsheets all day.
It's like you're not really
learning anything.
You're not.
You're not stretching those
muscles to learn.
And so I think going straight
from college to academy was helpful
because my brain was still
mushy in terms of being able to retain
information.
But it didn't really help with
the enroute side of stuff, because
it was all new, which maybe
was a benefit because I didn't have
to unlearn any bad habits.
So pro and con, I think.
Yeah, honestly, I think Vatson
helped a lot, too, because I kind
of knew the phraseology.
I kind of knew what all of
this stuff was going into it, because
you get out of it.
You get out of that's in what
you put into it.
If you want it to be super
realistic, you can make it be super
realistic.
If you don't want it to be,
you don't have to be.
But if you're training to do.
To be like a controller, then
you want to be realistic.
Right.
And so whenever you're
actually doing this stuff, you're
training like you're going to play.
Right.
Same thing in football, same
thing in hockey, same thing in whatever.
Right.
You're practicing like you're
going to play.
And so I think practicing
since the 8th grade kind of helped
me with academy.
I knew I was going to pass.
I was not.
I was not worried about not passing.
I was worried about my non
radar, because I had no clue how
to do that.
So you knew what to say, when
to say it.
You just didn't know what the
fixes were going to be.
Yeah, yeah.
Now you're.
Now you're adapting.
You're adapting to what the
FAA wants you to regurgitate.
There's a big line at the FAA
or at the academy that's like the
wall is blue.
You just do it because they're
telling you to do it.
This way you don't have to
understand why.
You don't have to understand.
You don't have time to
understand why.
You just do it.
Right.
Excuse me.
Very good.
You give them, you know, hold
southeast of the.
Of the Vicksburg radio beacon,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Why do we say that?
Well, you don't.
You don't care.
You're just saying the
phraseology to this airplane because
that's what you have to do.
Yeah.
Whereas now in the real world,
I like to understand why I'm saying
this, and I like to understand
what the context is behind this.
That's kind of why I like
doing this Instagram stuff and stuff,
this TikTok stuff, because
that allows me to continue to learn
and not just say it, because
we're saying it right.
And then it helps me demystify
it to myself and hopefully demystify
it to other people because
they, you know.
I.
Think I'm jumping ahead a
little bit.
But, you know, a lot of pilots
you know, you're training in a class
Delta or class Charlie, and
then you're doing a cross country
where maybe you talk to center
for a little bit.
But until you're like an
airline pilot, an airline first officer
captain, you're not talking
with the center until you're actually
flying people in the back of
the plane.
And so the instruction that
I'm giving you may be the first time
you've ever heard that
instruction before.
And I think that's crazy to
think about.
Right.
Like, you're flying all these
paying people and you've never heard
the string of words before in
your life.
Yeah.
And so me being able to
explain what I'm saying to people
maybe before they get to that
situation or they were in that situation
and now they can decipher.
Oh, that's what they meant by
that helps them become more situationally
aware in the cockpit, I would hope.
Oh, for sure.
And I think it is helpful.
See, when you get an
explanation, right, you're like,
all right, we'll hold and
blah, blah, blah.
I mean, I used to fly corporate.
It's like, yeah, because
probably teter bro's all backed up,
San Francisco socked in, and
they're not taking any more GA aircraft.
All right, cool.
So now we know.
We know why.
Now we know.
All right, I got this much fuel.
I got a plan for this.
I should probably say, hey, we
got to go somewhere else.
Yeah.
I think there's a really easy,
I don't want to say cop out, but
it's really easy to forget
that the people flying the airplanes
are people.
And it's also really easy to
forget that the controllers controlling
the planes are people.
Right.
At the end of the day, we're
all human.
And so communication is such a
vital part of this job.
And if we can streamline or at
least help somebody understand this
communication better and to be
more efficient and to be safer, then
I think that that just makes
the national airspace system safer
altogether.
And that's, that's really what
I'm striving to do with my channel
and all this stuff.
Now you get the funny things
like meowing on guard and stuff like
that.
But at the end of the day, I
really hope that pilots and aviation
enthusiasts and I mean even
air traffic control, because I don't
know everything, you know, I,
I hope that people take home little
tidbits that they can remember
and help make them a better or safer
or at least a more aware pilot
of, of what's going on.
So you mentioned, like,
obviously letourno you did tower
stuff and you did en route, Is
that what you said, like approach,
TRACON stuff?
Yeah, sorry.
And then so now you got hired
to do center.
Was that not what you wanted?
Was that like, how did that,
Was it just like, I want to be in
the Houston area, but this is
all that's available.
Kind of talk about how you got
placed where you did.
Yeah.
So the FAA has a very, very
sophisticated system on determining
if you're going to be a
terminal controller.
So a tower TRACON or an inroot controller.
And that system is, there's a
spreadsheet of all of the people
who have applied and they go
down and they say, terminal enroute,
terminal enroute, enroute,
enroute, terminal, terminal enroute,
enroute, terminal.
It's, it's just whatever, it's.
You go wherever you want to
go, wherever they tell you to go.
Okay, cool.
And so whenever I first got
the center, I was kind of disappointed.
You know, I think everybody
wants to be in the tower, everybody
wants to look at the
airplanes, but then you look at the
paycheck that center
controllers make and you're like,
it's a little bit, it's, it's.
Starting off, you're making
more than a tower controller.
Starting off.
Tower controllers definitely
have to play the game of tower, like
Game of Thrones, game of
towers, where you're going from a
low level tower to a mid level
tower to a high level tower.
Whereas center, the lowest
center is a level 10.
So there's different ratings
of federal facilities.
I think that lowest federal
tower is a four.
Okay.
And the highest is a 12.
So four would be.
I don't know, I, I can't even
think of a 4.
But like a 12 would like beat
DFW or Denver or something like that.
Right.
The lowest level center is a
10, and that is Guam.
No, Guam is an 8.
Actually.
Guam's like a weird, a weird hodgepodge.
Yeah, yeah.
Guam's Guam, San Juan.
San Juan Salt Lake, I think is
a 10 anyway.
But you're starting up at a
higher level than you would for a
tower.
That's, I guess, the takeaway there.
Yeah.
And most of the time you go to
a center and you're basically going
to be there your whole career,
because training on the center, you
do a lot more, a lot more stuff.
It takes about two or three
years to certify at a center, whereas
at a tower it's six to eight
months, depending on the complexity
of the tower.
So it's a faster checkout, but
you have to go to more towers and
you have to certify more if
you want to keep getting pay raises.
Right.
Excuse me.
Whereas at center, you know,
Houston's a level 11.
And so the next spot up would
be Fort Worth or level 12, but then
I'd have to restart training.
And training sucks because
every single decision that you make
is critiqued, right?
Because people's lives are
literally in your hands.
And so once you get certified,
you're just kind of like, do I want
to do that?
Do I not?
I'm just going to stay here
and control my airplanes as long
as I can.
Does certifying mean you truly
need to memorize every single inch
of your airspace?
Is it like you have to know,
like, I do, you draw.
I don't know why I think
somebody said this at one point,
but, like, you have to be able
to redraw the whole sector and know
where everything is.
Perfectly radial.
Everything Is that like you
have to memorize everything.
Yeah.
So.
So you graduate academy, and
depending on your.
Sorry to go back to the thing.
And it'll lead into this, you
graduate academy, and depending on
your class rank, you get to
pick off a list.
So if you're first in class,
you get to pick first off the list,
second in class, etc.
Etc.
So I was second in class,
subtle flex, and Houston was on the
list.
I'm from Dallas, so it was
like, it's just close enough away
that my mom can't surprise me
with a visit, but I can go home if
I need to.
Right.
And so I chose Houston.
It was great.
So you go to your facility and
then you're there for the rest of
your career, obviously.
But you're in the training
department between four, six, eight
months, learning maps,
diagrams, SOPs, LOAs, frequencies,
and there's like, different.
Different stages of training.
So stage two, I think, is.
Is A side.
So learning.
It's weird because my.
My area doesn't really use A sides.
A sides is like flight strip
distribution and flight data.
So taking flight plan
information, putting it into the
computer.
A lot of our sectors border Mexico.
And so our computer system and
Mexico's ATC computer system don't
play well together sometimes.
So we have to take manual
flight plans and put them into the
computer.
And that's kind of what the A
side is doing.
And then you get what's called
a D side.
And the D side is the radar
associate position is like the deputy
controller.
So if you think about a radar scope.
Right.
So you have A radar scope.
To the left or to the right of
the radar scope is a computer window
that's called the edst, the
Enroute decision support Tool.
And that has the electronic
flight strips on it.
And the D side is responsible
for the electronic flight strips
and doing coordination with
other controllers and doing stuff
like that.
So my airspace has five
sectors, so we have five D sides.
You have to get certified on
each D side before you can start
training on the R side.
So you do your D side labs,
which is still upstairs, then you
go down to the floor and you
start training.
So from academy graduation to
actually on the floor training D
side, it can take six months,
eight months, maybe a year, depending
on the backlog of training.
I think New York has like a
two year wait to get to a D side
class.
Oakland, maybe a little bit sooner.
Just depends on how many
people are there.
So then you train on your D
sides and then once you're done with
your D side, you go back
upstairs and you train for your R
sides.
So you already know the maps,
you already know the diagrams and
yeah, you need to know the
boundaries, you need to know all
the other sectors that are
around you.
Altitude stratums, airways
that are pertinent.
So if you have an airway
that's in an SOP or airway that's
in an loa, you need to know
that kind of stuff.
But we can pull up the airways
on our map.
Like we don't have to memorize
where they are.
You do whenever you're drawing
the map because you have to do it
by memory.
But a lot of that information
is just depicted on the radar scope
anyway.
Same thing with fixes.
The fixes that you use day to
day are going to be on the radar
map as well.
And there is a way to pull up
all of the fixes, but there's hundreds
of thousands of them, so it
would just kind of be inundated with
too much stuff on the radar scope.
So you go back upstairs, you
train our side, our side labs, which
is basically fake airplanes
telling them what to do.
And then you go to the floor
and you start training our side with
an instructor plugged in, obviously.
And you're training our sides
on all five of those sectors.
And once you're certified on
all five of those sectors, then you
are a certified professional
controller and you do the job until
you retire, I guess, which.
Is 60 or 57.
We have to retire at 56.
56.
It's mandatory retirement at
56 for now.
Yeah.
Who knows?
Oh, man.
Yeah.
We obviously won't get into
politics or anything like that.
When you are fully released.
All right, you did.
I mean, you said, what a side
D side R side.
Like, this is all new
terminology to me, but you have finally
done all three of those.
You have.
We'll even say your first day
with an instructor.
What's, like, your feeling of
being on the floor?
Like, all right, hey, Marcus,
you ready, dude?
Plug in.
Let's go.
And then, like, you hear me?
Like, hey, blah, blah, blah, blah.
We're climbing, like.
Or is there like, a rush of emotion?
Are you, like, do you freeze?
Like, your first radio car,
you're just like.
And they go step over you?
Like, talk to me about, like,
the first moment you had to.
I mean, you did Vatsim.
You've done this at
Letourneau, so I'm guessing you felt
pretty comfortable.
Yeah, just talk about kind of
the emotions and the feelings of,
like, you're in charge.
You're controlling aircraft
with, you know, some 300 people on
them.
Some of them, like, just talk
about that, I think.
Yeah, it's kind of surreal
because that's what I've been working
for since the eighth grade.
So to finally achieve that and
to be in that moment talking to actual
planes is.
It's really cool.
It's a really cool.
It's a really cool feeling.
And actually, speaking of my
first day on the job training our
sides, I had a commute Air
aircraft departing Houston going
somewhere to Mobile or golf
port or something, and this VFR guy
departed Beaumont and wasn't
talking to anybody.
And he was like, spiral
climbing up, and he basically almost
hit the commute air, like,
first day.
First day almost had a near
mid air.
Are you looking at your screen
like, this guy?
Yeah, this guy.
What's this guy doing?
And they missed by 0.19 miles
and 100ft.
The commuter pilot said he
could read the tail number.
And so you get, like.
I learned my first day how
close airplanes can get not actually
hit.
And I have never wanted to
experience that ever again in my
life.
Right now it's vfr.
As long as the paint doesn't
scratch, it's not.
It's not a thing.
Right.
And so it was just like, wow, that's.
That's crazy.
But again, that goes back to
kind of why I'm passionate about
doing this pilot outreach stuff.
Right.
If that pilot would have
known, hey, this is a big departure
corridor for Houston, right?
Don't.
Don't.
If you would have been, like,
50 miles to the east or, like, 20
miles to the east.
It wouldn't have been that big
of a problem because they would have
all been climbing over you but
not talking to anybody.
One big proponent of flight
following and you know, you're a
high wing Malibu, you can't
see above you or I don't, I don't
know what he was.
He was a high wing something.
He couldn't see the plane that
he was climbing into.
Yeah, like, like that, I guess
gives me more of a reason to, to
keep wanting to do this
because if I can help people be more
situationally aware, then
hopefully that doesn't happen again.
Right.
Hopefully that doesn't happen
to anything.
Well, it takes experience for
that pilot too.
Right.
Like you don't know the
experience level.
Like all he knows, like,
there's so much going on in a cockpit.
It's like he's probably
putting together, like climbing,
flying, like, I'm doing it all.
And then to understand, like
your doctorate degrees and you finally
understand.
All right.
All right, here's Houston,
here's Beaumont.
Planes are flying into Houston.
There must be a route that
they're doing.
Yeah, this is probably where
they're coming in over or like, oh,
this is where they always do
those routes.
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But shout out Textron Aviation
and as I said, make sure you go to
txtav.com I was doing aerial survey.
I was not flying.
Oh, You're a survey guy.
I was.
And we had the contract for
Texas where we actually had a letter
from the senator, Congress,
whatever it was.
We had to take a picture of
every square mile of Texas, including
approach corridors, arrivals,
everything at 4,000ft.
Oh, my God.
So we had to go.
I remember going to DFW and
being like, hey.
Like, I.
We.
We call ahead of time.
We call.
We give them the flight plan,
everything that they're like, all
right, perfect.
Come at this time, it may work out.
And, you know, you.
You call DFW tower, they're
gonna be like, no, get the heck out
of here.
And you have to be like, dude,
I have authorization from, I don't
know, whoever.
Whoever it was, like, the
government that I have to do this.
And then they yell at you.
You're just, like, in a corner
just, like, crying.
And then they're eventually
like, all right, you got two minutes
to go.
Do it.
Do it now.
And then if you don't get the
picture, it's like, I got to go back.
And I'm like, get out of here.
Yes.
Anyways.
But I was flying Aero Survey
in Charlotte.
I remember we're just, like,
at 10:5, just, like, right above
their.
Their Bravo airspace.
And we were monitoring, but we
didn't really understand the complexity
that Charlotte is and what it involved.
And we were just like, hey,
we're out of the airspace.
We got to be fine.
And there.
Eventually they're like, hey,
who's the plane flying at 10 5?
Are you listening?
And we're like, yes, it's us.
They're like, why aren't you
talking to us?
We need to know what you're doing.
And it's like, technically
we're doing anything wrong.
I don't know if we're at 10 5,
so I don't remember what the airspace
is exactly, but we were out of
the airspace, so technically weren't
doing anything wrong.
We were in the means of VFR flying.
But they just would prefer.
And you would have preferred
to be talking to that person 1.
Because you don't know what
that pilot's going to do.
You don't.
I mean, let's say our engine
fails and we got to come down.
It's like, yeah, it'd be nice
to know what's going on and what
your plans are, just so we
know you're not going to screw up
our arrivals, just so you know.
I mean, there's tons of time
I've been coming on arrival.
And they're like, hey, we got
this one.
Guy we're not talking to.
We're vectoring everyone 10
miles this way.
And they're like, all right,
wait, now he turned that way.
So now we need you to go this way.
And I'm sure that just
increases your workload to, to just
makes you kind of get you
outta your norm.
When you're outta your norm,
you know you're, you can miss something
else and you're just frustrated.
Yeah, there's a lot going on.
Yeah.
Air traffic controllers don't
like surprises.
Yeah, no.
Either do pilots.
Pilots, like, very mundane.
I want, I want a very boring flight.
I don't need to make friends
of the controllers.
I don't need to go see you.
I just need to get to point A
or get to point B as safe as possible.
Yeah, yeah.
No, for sure.
And yeah, it's funny.
Aerial service air traffic
controllers, I think, have a love
hate relationship with aerial
survey because you're all.
Are always in the spot.
That's like the worst spot
that you can possibly be.
And I don't, I don't know how
it works, but that's just like the
law of air traffic.
If you have an aerial survey
is going to be in the worst spot,
which, you know, that's your job.
That's what you have to do.
And it's our job to work
around you.
But it's a lot easier to work
around you if we're talking to you
and if we know what you're doing.
Right?
Yeah.
We don't like surprises.
Y' all don't like surprises.
So let's not have any surprises.
Talk to us.
We want to talk to you.
Right.
I mean, now, where I am now,
like flying for the airlines, like
getting in a small plane, I
can't imagine not being an IFR flight
plan.
Like, I want to talk or flight
following at the least, especially
Florida.
I would never fly in the state
of Florida without a VFR flight plan
or IFR flight plan.
Like, holy smokes.
Once you see TCAs and all the
planes that are in that area, it's
like, dang, help me, please do
not let them hit me.
Yeah.
Florida is crazy wild west.
Yeah.
What kind of getting away from
the training part of it, what makes
a controller's day like, bad?
You mentioned surprises.
But like, what's like, I don't
know if you have a specific instance
that you, you can think of.
What's like a bad day for a controller?
The.
That's a good question.
Bad day for a controller.
Is it like weather, like when
Houston's getting Shut down with
a big line of weather.
It's going all the way from
Dallas all the way down to, I don't
know, Haran.
Like, is that like a bad day
or is that just like, it's fine,
pilot, you just vector around it.
I would say, whenever I first
got certified, I would say that a
big line of weather, worst
day, because it's a lot of, it's
a lot more work.
But now that you do this, the
same line of weather comes through
every two weeks, you know, so
you just get used to it and you get,
you're like, okay, well, here
we go.
Everybody's on their thing.
I think whenever, I don't
know, it's hard because I like this
job so much that it's hard to
find, like the negatives that are
true negatives.
Right.
Small annoyances.
Oh, my leave wasn't approved.
Oh, blah, blah, blah, we gotta
do this.
But like, when you're plugged
into a sector, it's almost cathartic
because you're just doing the job.
I think frustrating thing is
pilots trying to outsmart the system
thinking that they're the only
ones that have ever tried this before.
Whenever it's, you know,
you're going to Aspen, everybody's
going to Aspen.
Yeah.
You can't change of
destination to Aspen.
I'm sorry, that's just not,
that's not how it's going to work.
You're going to Palm Beach.
You can't change the
destination to, to Palm beach, right?
Yeah, it's people trying to
circumnavigate the, the thing.
It's, it's, it's, it's kind of
funny and on our side because it's
like, wow, okay, here we go.
This guy's trying to do this.
But it can get kind of
annoying sometimes because, you know,
you, you know better, you, you
or you should know better, you know,
and I don't like being the,
the negative Nancy here.
I don't like being the quote,
unquote, sky cop that people think
we are, because we're not cops.
We're just there trying to do
our job.
And you know, if I give you
change of destination to Aspen now,
Aspen controllers are going to
be over inundated with people.
And that's not, that's not me
being a very good neighbor to Denver
and not me being a very good
neighbor to Aspen controllers.
Right?
If I allow you to do this, I
don't know.
But, but in terms of like,
what makes a controller's day bad?
I don't know.
I, I Think some of my co
workers would say when their football
team loses that, like, that
would be their big thing.
But, like, day to day, it's
really not, not a thing that we worry
about.
It's not a thing because
there's so many other things to deal
with and there's so many other
things we like to be controlling.
We like to have control of
what's going on in our immediate
area.
And, and so I'm not going to
have a thing that makes my attitude
bad whenever I'm controlling airplanes.
I'm going to try not to, at
least, because that's not safe for
y' all and it's not safe for me.
Right, right.
And so I think that would be
my answer.
And, and, and knowing that
limit is an important aspect of being
a controller.
Right.
Knowing knowing your limits,
knowing your, your mental health.
I need a mental health day
today or something like that because
there's such a stigma, I
think, behind mental health, especially
in the pilot community,
especially in the aviation community
and air traffic control.
I would imagine that people
just fight through it whenever that's
not necessarily safe or healthy.
Yeah.
And I think that it's
definitely been more in the forefront.
I know there's some
legislation going through for pilot
mental health.
One of the pilot mental health
Council people have reached out to
me on TikTok and we're doing
some stuff.
And so, yeah, I think
understanding your own limits and
not letting that affect you,
controlling airplanes or you flying
airplanes is super important.
And so it doesn't necessarily
get to, oh, you're having a bad day
today, or this, this makes me
mad because hopefully you're not
getting to that point.
Right, right.
Do you, can you tell early on
if a pilot is going to be like, oh,
here we go.
Like, can you tell in the very
first call that they made that, like,
this is going to be a problem,
or does it usually kind of evaluate
over time or come up over time?
Yes, you can tell because
that's all we do.
All we do all day is listen to pilots.
And so now you, you have call
signs right there.
There's a lot of military call
signs that fly through Houston, training
flights, things like that.
So you kind of understand that
they're going to be training.
Right.
And so you go into it knowing
these guys are training, so you're
a little bit slower.
You, you're trying not to over
inundate them with, with this, with
information, but sometimes
you're just so busy that you just
have to get.
You need them to listen and
they're not listening.
And you're like, just.
I can't make your ears work
any better than they are, so please,
just listen, please.
And then you get the
instructor key over.
You know, like, all right,
here we go.
Okay, cool.
Thank you.
But, yeah, you can.
You can tell.
And especially with, like,
certain phraseology, time to climbs
are a big one.
So November 1, 2, 3, climb to
leave flight level three five zero
in four minutes.
Maintain flight level 360.
That read back is super
important because if they read it
back, all right, we're out of
34 in three minutes up to 36.
Okay, you're confident you're
going to make it.
Here we go.
All right, we're out of 30.
I'm sorry, say that again.
Okay.
No, maintain your altitude.
We're not.
We're not.
We're not doing that.
You stay where you are.
Yeah, Yeah.
I don't trust you.
And, you know, different
airlines have different stereotypes
as well, so.
So just kind of understanding.
Understanding the players and
understanding the game, you get more
experience with, obviously, as
you do this more.
But, you know, if you need a
Southwest decline, they're going
to climb.
If you need an Aeromexico,
well, actually don't need Aeromexicos
to do anything.
You move.
You try and move other planes.
I love Aeromexico, but if you
can move other planes.
Yeah, they're.
They're fun.
You know, United's gonna.
Gonna want to delete the
speeds on the arrival.
Delta's gonna complain about
Light shop.
You know, it's a stereotype
because it's true.
And, you know, American's
gonna want to deviate 800 miles around
the thunderstorm.
Okay, cool.
You know, it's.
It is what it is.
It's what everyone does.
It's what everyone does.
And.
And you go into it with that
knowledge and with that anticipation
that that's what they're going
to do.
And you're kind of reading
their mind because it's what they
all do.
And so they check on.
And before they can even
request deviations, you're like,
deviation left.
Here you go.
And they're like, oh, wow.
That's what I was just about
to ask.
I'm like, I know, I know, I know.
I've done this before.
It's not my first rodeo.
We can read your brain.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What all do you actually see?
So I know some pilots do know
this, but, like, all right, I come
in, you know, I'm November
1234, whatever it is, transponder
on.
What do you actually see?
I'M actually going to put out
some videos about data block stuff
here in a little bit.
But basically a data block is
your airplane, is a little hash,
like a little backslash.
And that is your radar ping
mode C ping around that hash.
That little slash is a diamond
and that is like your target.
So slash and diamond is your airplane.
Connected to that diamond is a
data block and that data block has
your aircraft ID.
So whatever you file, aircraft
ID November 1, 2, 3.
Underneath that is your altitude.
So climbing, descending, VFR,
blah, blah, blah.
That is the altitude block.
Excuse me.
Underneath that you have on
the left side a computer identification
number.
It's a three digit code.
So we talked about flight
strips a little bit earlier.
So when you file an IFR flight
plan that populates a flight strip.
And the flight strip basically
has all of the information about
your airplane.
So call sign, aircraft type,
altitude, route of flight, beacon
code, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And on the bottom of that
flight strip you have a computer
identification number.
That computer identification
number correlates to your data block.
So that's basically how we
correlate IFR information with flight
strip.
Okay.
And then to the right of that
you have your ground speed center.
Air traffic control only sees
ground speed.
We don't see indicated, we
don't see true, we only see ground
speed.
And then underneath that, in
the fourth line, you either have
aircraft type or destination.
And you can alternate like
which one you want to show all the
time.
So I normally run
destinations, some people run types
and I don't understand that
because I would like to know where
you're going as opposed to
what type of airplane you are.
Because we have a little
button that we can push that alternates
that information anyway.
And then the fourth line also
can share heading information.
It can share speed information.
Like if we assign you a
heading, we can type it in.
And now it's on your data block.
So we know you're on this heading.
If we assign you a mach
number, if we assign you a speed,
we can type it in and it's
assigned there.
Does that carry over to the
next controller?
It does.
Like yeah, center to center,
it'll carry over.
Fourth line doesn't transfer
to a tracon.
Okay.
Excuse me.
So that's why when you say
like check in with your speed.
Yeah, yeah.
So sometimes we'll call and
we'll be like, hey, no.
123 is assigned 280 knots.
If we're too busy to make that
call, we may ask you to do that.
Got it.
Okay.
Just depends yeah.
Now that's a lot of
information on a TRACON data block.
They get, they get aircraft ID
altitude that you're at and then
speed.
That's basically it.
They can add some more stuff,
but like, most of the time that's
it.
There's a little letter also
associated with that with like a
departure gate.
So you depart Houston and
you're going east.
It's going to be an E. Let's
say, for example, they don't know
your airport that you're
landing at.
They don't know where you're going.
They just know I have to aim
you to the east because that is the
direction that you should be going.
So whenever you're flying
through a TRACON and they're like,
say your destination airport
or say your on course heading or
whatever, they, they just know
what departure gate you're going
out of.
They don't know.
They don't have a, like they
can run a route line, but it takes
them a long time to figure out
how to do that.
And so it's easier for them
just to ask you, oh yeah, I'm going
to three Romeo seven.
Okay, cool, turn right, heading.
Because they know where the
airport is.
Yeah.
They just don't know where
you're going.
Right.
They just know you're going east.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that's, that's a pretty big
question that people always ask.
How come tracons never know
where I'm going?
Well, it's because that's just
a limitation of the, of the computer
system.
That's why they're asking you.
Right.
And then they know.
You know, this might be,
obviously you can answer this, probably
like limited answer to this.
And like this kind of goes to
the beginning of the, the podcast.
You're like, I speak for
myself, I don't speak for anyone
else, but there's been a lot
of talk about privatization or just
investing in our system.
Investing in the system
because truth be told, it's a very
old system, right?
Like they, they probably had
updates and updates and updates on
top of it.
But truth be told, it's still
like what, 1960s technology.
It's just gotten a couple, you
know, software fixes every once in
a while.
What does new technology look like?
Like what?
I don't know if like, like
they've talked to different companies
about how to privatize it,
about how to make it better.
How do you make it better?
Like, what do you do?
Like, is it where you don't
have to call ahead?
Is it where you just Type in a line.
AI is involved.
It's like, well, we can't do
this because there's 33% of these
other airplanes are flying north.
Or like just talk a little bit
about what either privatization could
look like, which you, you
don't have to if you don't want to.
And then also what like the
improvement improvements could look
like.
Yeah, I can't really talk
about privatization partly because
I only like talking about
stuff that I know about and I really
don't know anything about.
Yeah.
And so I don't want to
speculate on that now in terms of
like the, the new air traffic
control system.
Bnacs, bnatcs I think is what
they're calling it.
They also haven't told us what
they're going to do.
I know we're getting a new
voice switching and control system.
I saw a module of that
actually at Communicating for Safety
this year, which is a big
symposium they have in Vegas where
basically all the companies
that are developing stuff can showcase.
It's like ces but for atc.
Yeah.
And so I got to see the new
voice switching thing.
Switching from copper wire to
fiber I think is a great thing.
I think having voiceover IP as
opposed to ground based transmitters
may be a little bit tricky
because there's a delay in the.
You like release the button
and then it goes to satellite, comes
back to the plane.
I only know that firsthand
because we talk to a lot of drones
that do practice stuff.
And so I'm talking to somebody
in Vegas through the, through a link
through the drone.
Nothing goes here.
And so it's like a good three
or four second delay before they
respond, which can be kind of frustrating.
But in terms of like
facilities like Houston center was
built in 1965.
It's the newest air Route
Traffic Control center.
Oh, wow.
Lyndon B. Johnson built it.
It's crazy.
And all the other ones are
younger than that.
There's 22 centers and there's
22 centers because back whenever
they were being built, it was
the middle of the Cold War and they
were worried about nuclear
bombs and so they didn't want one
system to go down because of a bomb.
If they were all like
consolidated right now, nukes are
so good, it doesn't matter
where you have it, you'll just die
anyway.
So it doesn't matter if
they're consolidated or not.
If I can be so blunt.
But so yeah, there's talk
about consolidating into a new air
traffic control center.
I don't know where that's
going to be.
I don't know what facilities
are going to consolidate that too.
We kind of have a running, I
don't want to say BET board, but
it's kind of like a list of
like, oh, what facilities are going
to be consolidated into this
new place first, you know, like,
oh, how are we going to do this?
So whenever you get hired with
the faa, one of the big questions
that they ask is, are you able
to adapt to new technology?
And you know, I think that's a
great question.
I mean, just in the time that
I've been here, I got hired in 2019.
We got new radar scopes.
Like they're, they were like
incandescent CRD or you know, like
the old cathode ray tube
scopes whenever I first got in.
And now they're digital scopes
which are really cool.
CPDLC has been implemented.
We're just about to start full
services training on that.
So that's a relatively new
thing too.
So there's been so much
technologically advanced stuff that,
I mean, has been years in the
pipeline, but now it's finally getting
here.
So it's weird to be like we're
going to replace all of it.
Okay, but we're just getting
the new stuff, right?
This is the stuff that we need where.
This is the stuff that that is
that we've been like building on.
And so, yeah, I don't know
what the new stuff is like in the
center.
It's hard to know what you
need because the stuff that we're
working with works most of the time.
The frequencies are the most
annoying thing because they'll go
down and then you can't hear anybody.
We.
So my airspace borders the
ocean, the Gulf frequency, and a
lot of their transmitters are
voiceover IP on oil rigs.
And so a hurricane blows
through, knocks out the oil rig.
Now you can't talk to half the
airplanes across the Gulf.
And so I think new
communication stuff is definitely
needed.
The fiber optics as opposed to
copper, I think is definitely needed.
New radar systems, I guess.
Cool.
I don't really like the radar
that we have works.
It's cool.
But I mean, obviously they're
from the 60s and the 70s, so new
radar systems.
Cool.
Yeah.
All for it.
It's kind of like a behind the
scenes fix that we don't really see
until they fail, you know, and
they don't fail very often.
But when they do fail, it
takes them a long time because they're
old.
And so the companies that
built them are no longer in business.
So you can't get parts for
them, which I think is interesting.
But.
Yeah, so the new, new radar
systems, new communication stuff,
I mean, that's.
It's not, it's not over.
Over ambitious, I don't think.
I think it needs to happen.
And now in three years, I
think is a pretty ambitious goal.
But I think they're, they're
wanting to do something extreme and
something needs to happen.
So here you go.
I guess.
What would make your job easier?
Like what, What?
Like day to day would actually
could be improved or be easier other
than.
More time off, more time, more leave.
This goes with the
communication thing.
With the new system, we'll be
able to cross couple our frequencies
better.
Most facilities are able to
cross couple transmitter sites.
What does that mean?
It means I'm working two sectors.
So I'm working two frequencies.
124.7, let's say, and 133.8.
I can have airplanes on both
frequencies talking.
And they both go into my ear.
So I can hear both of them
talking at the same time.
They don't know that they're
stepping on each other.
And so I hear bits and pieces
of both conversation.
And I go back and like, okay,
who was that talking?
And then they both check on again.
That's, I think, one of the
most frustrating parts.
So being for pilots too, right?
Because you're like, I don't
know what I'm doing.
Yeah, yeah.
So being able to cross couple 24.
7 to 33.
8 is basically retransmit onto
that other frequency.
So the person on 33 can hear
the person on 24.
7 talking.
Which I think this new system
will work.
The current system in my
airspace isn't conducive to cross
coupling just because of where
the transmitters are and something
like that.
They told me it was very
highly technical.
And I'm like, okay, so I can't
do it.
And they're like, yeah, okay,
but I know some places can.
And it's kind of hit or miss
sometimes, but.
But I. I think that would be
the most beneficial because that
is definitely one of the
things that we deal with constantly
every day.
And that, that brings me back
to one of my big points about checking
on.
Whenever you check onto a new frequency.
It's not a race.
It's not a race to check on.
Oh, no, it's a race, man.
I have to say it.
As soon as I switch, I go.
Last digit and you're
immediately on the button.
Right.
Or you're saying it.
I like to wait three seconds.
I like to wait three seconds, you're.
Saying it on the old frequency
as you're switching, and then it
goes to the next frequency.
Yeah, yeah.
You better hope you heard everything.
So not saying it twice.
I'm just kidding.
Yeah.
It's not a race.
Especially in the center, we
know if you've checked on or not.
There's a little.
So on your data block, there's
a little WI FI symbol as well that
we click on and off your data
block to say you're on frequency,
you're not on frequency.
Okay.
And so if you're not there, we
know you're not there.
And then we'll reach out to
you if we need to talk to you.
But, yeah, it's not a race.
Just dial and then just listen.
Just hang out 5, 10, 15
seconds a minute.
You know, if it's busy, you're asking.
I know, I know, I know.
You're asking a lot.
I know.
Hang out a minute.
You know, there's just waiting.
But they're like, I know I
gotta touch it, do it.
But ultimately, we'll reach
out to you if we need you any sooner
than that.
Is that why.
When they'll come back and be
like, hey, you know, 5463 Lima, did
you check in?
Is that just because, like,
they might not have hit the data
block?
Yeah, yeah.
Or.
Or the, the secret.
The secret code word that I'm
going to tell everybody now is, hey,
11-5-463 Lima, how's your ride
at 34?
Oh, it's.
It's smooth at 34.
Okay, cool.
I'm validating your altitude.
I'm making sure that you're on frequency.
Bloop, poop.
There you go.
And I'm not calling you out
because maybe you forgot to check
on or whatever.
Or, or you didn't forget to
check on.
You're just waiting like,
okay, cool.
I'm not.
I'm not trying to be like,
hey, are you here?
You know, I don't.
I'm just gonna see if you're
here or not.
And if you're not here, I'm
calling the previous sector.
I'm like, hey, try this guy again.
Or if they don't have you.
Okay, now I bring Shadow on
guard and, and, and going through
the NORDO steps and whatnot.
Some people I've flown with,
if, like, they, they check on, they'd
wait 15 seconds.
Check on again, would you?
Some people ident.
Is that like a no, no?
Is that like, eh, whatever you can.
Like, I mean, I'll get To you
when I get to you.
I don't think you're wrong identing.
So on your little.
So your diamond right in your
little beacon slash will turn into
a hashtag.
No, no, I'm sorry, It's three.
It's three horizontal lines
whenever you ident.
So it changes your data block.
So that's what cues us into,
hey, you're identing.
And I would say every
controller would ask, hey, you're
identing.
Are you okay?
Or like, what's, what's going
on, blah, blah, blah.
So that kind of draws your
eyes to it.
Yeah.
If it's busy and you checked
on once, no response, the controller
is still talking to other people.
Okay.
Now there's a lull.
You check on again.
Maybe they're doing some
coordination in the background that
you don't know about.
I don't think it's wrong to ident.
But again, we know if you're
on frequency or not.
If we heard you, we'll
acknowledge you because we have to,
or we should.
It's our job.
But sometimes a check on is
low, low duty priority, right?
Yeah.
Especially if you're just
straight and level, fat, dumb and
happy.
You know this like you're just
flying, right.
I have to do other things
first before I get back to you.
Although some pilots think
that checking on is like, this is
the most important thing in
the world.
Right.
I think when the, the issue
arises is when it happens, when you
need something.
So like, all right, hey, I'm
asking this person about the weather.
They're like, oh, perfect timing.
You can actually contact this
center now because you're in their
sector.
Like, all right, well, I got
like a couple miles, like I got 20
miles before I need to make a decision.
Like, I don't have time anymore.
So then they're like, all
right, bing.
And then whenever that
happens, you know, you try to check
in.
Oh, multiple people are talking.
I was like, oh, my gosh.
Like, I don't have time to do this.
I just need, I need my deviation.
Yeah.
And I think.
If that if I'm the controller
working airplanes around that weather,
then I'm going to be
preemptive and I'm, I'm taking this
hand off.
I know this guy's going to be
checking on, and I'm pretty sure
he's going to want deviations
whenever he checks on.
Right.
So I'm already thinking about that.
Whenever I take this hand off,
I'm doing other stuff.
You check on, go back to you.
Okay.
Nobody's really started
deviating until, you know, I've got
five minutes or whatever,
until you actually have to start
deviating.
Okay.
If there's higher duty
priority stuff, I'm going to do that
first and I'm going to come
back to you.
Yeah.
Number one, two, three,
deviation left.
Of course approved when able.
Procedure X. Bartenberg advice direct.
Blah, blah, blah.
It's controller technique and
it's controller experience.
A trainee is not going to have
that, that same mentality as opposed
to, you know, a 20 year
controller veteran.
But ultimately you need what
you need to do.
You need to do what you need
to do in order to be safe flying
the airplane.
Right.
If that is to butt in to say,
hey, I'm about to fly into an anvil,
I need a deviation.
Okay, here you go.
If you can't get a word in
edgewise, this is a big one of the
big questions that I get
flying in like Jacksonville and Florida
and stuff, or from people who
fly there.
They're like, there's so many
planes talking that I'm about to
fly through a thunderstorm.
I cannot do that.
I cannot tell the controller
I'm about to deviate.
What should I do?
Well, what I tell them is
declare an emergency.
I know, it's a scary thought.
Scary thought.
Number one, two, three,
declaring an emergency.
We're deviating.
20 degrees left for the thunderstorm.
God, dude, we have.
You got to do it.
You have to do it.
Yeah.
You're flying the airplane,
the controller is safe on the ground.
Right.
You are the one that's about
to fly through hail and blah, blah,
blah.
Right.
Once you're done doing that,
you can cancel the emergency.
It's not, it's not like that's
going to follow you all the way to
the ground.
Now.
You may get a phone number and
they may just be like, hey, what
happened?
Oh, well, I was about to fly
through a thunderstorm.
Okay.
But it's, it's not punitive.
It's not, it's not meant to be
like, oh, we got you.
You know, safety of flight is
number one.
Right.
Same thing with controllers.
Safe, orderly and expeditious
flow of traffic.
If you need to declare an
emergency for safety, do it.
Absolutely.
And I would agree with that.
Yeah.
It's like, you got to do what
you got to do.
Then TSP is going to be like,
why did you fly through the thunderstorm?
It's like, well, they didn't
talk to me.
It's like, you're the pilot,
you control the plane.
Like, you should have done that.
Yeah.
Getting off track of that.
This is kind of interesting.
Like I just thought about this
right now.
You know, like a pilot, they
go to work, they have a job, it goes
fly this plane to, from this
destination to this destination and
then either you're done for
the day or you do it again.
But there's always an end, right?
Like your job, you sit down
and it's just like there's no, like
your start is just like a ton
of airplanes.
Like there's no like
completion point.
Yeah.
Was that hard for you to like
either wind down afterwards, like
to not feel like it's like
done because the like the job is
still there, like someone's
still doing it?
Or is it just like as simple
as clocking in, clocking out, you're
brains off of that?
I don't know if that makes sense.
No, yeah, yeah, for sure.
You know, growing up, doing
theater stuff, at the end of the
show you get a bow and there's
everybody's clapping and like that's
the end.
Right.
And then you get to this job
and okay, there's airplanes and your
job is to keep them safe from
one side of the scope to the other.
Now there's more airplanes and
you're keeping them safe from one
side of the scope to the other.
It never ends.
And so, yeah, there's kind of
a, an unsatisfactory ending, I guess,
to the job because it never ends.
Now you have like departure
banks and arrival banks and those
end, but you'll always have airplanes.
And so being able to find
satisfaction in the moment of doing
the job, I think is important
because you're never going to have
satisfaction of ending the job
because that doesn't exist.
Yeah, I think that's why I
like doing Legos so much.
That's kind of my, my wind
down thing because it's chaos and
then you put it into order and
then it's done and then you can just
move on to the next thing.
Right.
Same thing with like these,
these TikTok videos and these, these
Instagram videos.
Like I can make a video, talk
about it and then it's done.
And then I get the instant
feedback of people commenting or
liking or sharing, which then
spurs more development of these videos.
And so I really like doing
that, I guess to kind of satiate
my theatrical brain.
Yeah.
With all of that as well.
But yeah, it's, it's, that's
an interesting thing that you bring
up because that's, that's
something that I've, that I've dealt
with and I'm Sure.
A lot of people.
Yeah.
It's just like, you go home
and it's like, all right, well, I
actually want to know if this
plane made it.
Okay.
I'm looking Flight away and be
like, all right.
Oh, look, they flew right
through the thunderstorm.
So same thing.
Yeah.
So with emergencies, for sure
in the center, you know, depressurization,
medical emergency, whatever,
you hand them off to the tray con.
You never know how it ends,
and unless there's a news story about
it, you're just.
You just keep going, you know,
like, yeah, you can pull up flight
away at the end if you want,
but I would say 99% of controllers
don't.
They're just like, well, I
handed them off to the tray con.
That's what I had to do next.
You know, whenever there's
another emergency going on, like,
whenever I hear it and they
get handed off, I'm always like,
all right, I'm going to radio
2com2, plugging in that frequency.
Let me listen up what's going on.
As long as I can keep tracking them.
And then it's gone.
I'm just like, okay, good
luck, guys.
Good luck.
See ya.
Yeah, it is definitely an
interesting mystery point.
I do have kind of, like, one
question about phone numbers.
What can you.
Obviously, there's a point in
time where phone numbers need to
be given out, but is there,
like a.
Can you demystify?
Like, is it like, all, like,
bad getting a phone number?
Or is there opportunities for
just learning, you know, phone numbers
necessarily aren't going to
be, hey, you know, you're in trouble.
It could be like, hey, we just
really would like to know why you
did that, or, hey, we just
changed this.
It's easier for me to talk to
you over the phone than it is for
me to tell you to show the frequency.
Yeah.
So I actually just made a
video about this.
It's called Brashers.
You know why it's called a Brasher?
So it's named after somebody.
It's called.
It's named after a Captain
Jack Brasher, who in the 80s, busted
an altitude by like, 3 or 400ft.
Air traffic control didn't
tell him about it.
And then, like, four months
later, the FAA sent him a letter
saying, hey, we're taking
certificate action because you busted
in altitude.
And so they went to court,
they went to trial, and the jury
sided with the pilot because
they're like, he didn't know that
he had busted the altitude.
One, he's flown 5,000 legs
since then.
Two, he can't recall anything
that's happened during this moment.
So you can't expect him to fix
it or to have any knowledge of what's
going on anyway.
So the FAA basically said,
okay, after that we're going to have
a thing called the Brasher
warning or the, or the, the pilot
possible pilot deviation.
And it's non punitive.
It's non punitive.
It's basically just saying,
hey, something happened.
Take note of what was going on
in the flight deck and whenever you
land, give us a call because
we want to talk about it.
Now, there's kind of two
variations of pilot deviations.
There's pilot deviations that
lead to a loss of separation and
there's pilot deviations that
do not lead to a loss of separation.
You took a wrong turn, you did
something wrong.
Nothing happened.
But the controller just wants
to say, hey, what happened here?
How can we fix it?
Was it something that I said?
Was it an instruction that was unclear?
Is there a technical aspect of
your FMS that's incorrect that we
need to fix?
Trying to stop those Swiss
cheese holes from lining up so that
we can fix it before it
becomes a problem that leads to a
loss of separation?
I would say that's 90% of the
possible pilot deviation calls.
The other ones obviously lead
to some sort of certificate, not
certificate action, some sort
of loss of separation.
Now air traffic controls hands
are tied whenever there's a loss
of separation because we get
snitched on by our computer system.
Our computer says, hey,
there's a loss of separation, sends
it to the quality control
panel people.
Quality control people then
have to review that, that situation.
So again, telling you, hey,
what happened in the flight deck?
Was the, was the instruction unclear?
Was something happening that
caused this loss of separation besides,
you know, maybe a pilot error,
Maybe it was controller error.
Right.
They miss a read back.
Did they miss a hear back?
So just kind of being able to
write down that stuff so that whenever
you do call, if you call now,
you don't have to call, but it would
be prudent if you did call.
Probably less likely to get in
trouble if you call.
Yeah.
Now you're like, all right, jerk.
I have some, some fizzo people
who follow my tiktoks.
And it's actually really
interesting because, you know, a
majority of the, of the things
that they deal with are, you know,
common errors and they're
honest mistakes and they're things
that, okay, do we need retraining?
Do we need, do we need to
change this scenario?
Do we need to change this how
this is read within an fms.
How can we fix this?
So it's not very much on the pilot.
It's on the system.
Because that's a majority of,
I think aviation human factors is
how can we change the system
to make flying safer?
And how can we help pilots
make flying safer?
How can we help controllers
make flying safer?
So I would say, yeah, the
Brasher is not punitive.
But, you know, those things
that get sent to quality control
also get sent to the fisdo.
The supervisor writes up a
little blurb about what happened.
If the pilot calls, that phone
call is logged, and it's also sent
to the fisdo.
So that would be the time for
you to explain what was going on.
Right.
That gives you your side of
the story as opposed to just what
the controller saw.
So it is beneficial and it's
prudent, I would think, to.
To call, so you at least have
that ability to say, hey, this is
what happened.
And then as a pilot, too, you follow.
If your airline is involved in
it, you fall under the ASAP program.
So the prudent thing for you
to do is to file an ASAP as soon
as you can as well.
And again, that protects you.
And then it also gets reviewed.
Right?
Because like you said, the
most important thing is we want to
figure out why this happened.
Was it a failure of our system
or was someone tired?
Was just some kind of factor
that factored in.
You heard the wrong thing, you
made a mistake, which, okay, mistakes
happen.
We're not perfect.
You're not perfect.
No one's perfect.
Things happen, but you just
want to minimize those mistakes.
No, for sure.
And I think that at the heart,
that is what the Brasher warning
was created.
It's basically a Miranda Rides
for pilots, right?
So use that.
Fill out the NASA form, fill
out the ATS app.
That's the Air Traffic
Controller Safety Action Plan, something
or other.
That's kind of like the ASAP
report for pilots.
Because self reporting is a
lot easier than trying to cover it
up.
And it's.
It's a lot better for you in
the long run.
For sure.
Agreed.
How many phone numbers are you
going out do you, like, keep track
of?
All?
Like, 365 and I got 10 piled fun.
You know, I actually have not
given out any phone numbers, personally.
Look at you, bro.
I saw you just brush your shoulders.
The tray con called me once,
and they're like, hey, we need you
to brasher this guy because he
busted an altitude on a sid and they
were kind of doing some SID reworkings.
So they wanted to call and be
like, hey, how could we make this
better?
And that was basically what
that, what that brasher was.
But if it's a non separation
issue, it's really up to the controller's
judgment on if they want to
brasher the pilot or not.
Can they educate them now?
Do they have time to educate
them like hey, this CPDLC clearance
said cleared to Sidon via
Greene County.
You just turn direct sight in.
You need to look at page two
of the document because you have
to go to Greene county and
then site in.
It's worded weird.
That's a known issue.
So does it really help to
pressure somebody or is it more just
better to just educate them?
Look at page two, you know.
Yeah, it just depends.
It just depends.
Like I said, air traffic
controllers are not the police.
If it leads to a loss of
separation, our hands are tied.
But if it doesn't, it's really.
Are you argumentative?
Are you the one Romeo guy at
the Vegas class Bravo?
Oh my gosh, that's exactly
what I was thinking of.
Or are you.
Yeah.
Or are you apologetic or.
Yeah.
Is it an honest mistake?
Like you're human.
We're human.
People make mistakes and it's
not, it's not beneficial to just
bash on these people, you know.
Yeah.
Last question.
Because we've been talking for
a while, I feel like we could do
some recurring episodes here.
You'd be my.
For sure, for sure.
Happy to.
Good stuff going.
But what is something.
There's two part question.
What's your favorite thing
that a pilot can do and what's your
least favorite thing that
pilots do?
Favorite thing that pilots do
is wait to check on is.
Stop talking.
Yeah, stop talking.
No, I, I really enjoy a pilot
who you can definitely tell is enjoying
the job because that, I mean
all we do is hear pilots day to day.
And so having somebody really
enjoy what they're doing helps me
enjoy what I'm doing, I guess.
Does that make sense?
I mean that's the same for me.
I would say the same thing.
Like you can tell when a
controller is like in a good mood.
There's nothing worse than you
check on the controller's like.
Yeah, yeah.
It goes a long way.
Right?
Yeah.
And especially cause like this
is aviation.
Like you're flying an airplane
through the air.
Like this is crazy that you're
actually doing this.
Right.
Right.
Losing that wonderlust is, is
kind of sad.
It's like the loss of
innocence, you know, it's like oh
my gosh.
Just.
And it Happens to everyone.
At some point, you're all
gonna be.
Like, what the heck?
Yeah.
And then I think what pilots
do that I don't like.
Yeah, Weather days, ride days,
whenever you check on.
Most controllers will tell you
about that information when you check
on.
But pilots hear their call
sign and their ears go off.
And so then they check back
two minutes later.
Hey, how are the rides up ahead?
I told you.
I told you when you checked on.
And now I'm wasting time doing
this again.
Right?
So they're terrible everywhere.
I always love when they say that.
It's like, I'm not gonna say anything.
Yeah.
Oh, the rides, the rides.
Light, occasional moderate bumps.
29 to 38.
Okay.
How the rides are 35.
Oh, yeah.
But sometimes we are up to.
We like the captain just like,
just ask him anyways.
You're like, but they just
said the rides are bad.
I know.
Like, well, they don't know.
Three, six, zero might be.
It's like, okay, hi.
Yeah, three, six, zero.
I told you, they suck.
Okay, thank you.
Bye.
So one of the cool things with
Datacom or cpdlc full service is
we're going to have a thing
called Advisories.
And it's basically free text
that we can uplink to a point plane
whenever you check on or at
any point.
And it will, if we keep it up
to date, it'll tell you, these are
the rides.
These are where it's bad.
This is what people are doing.
This is a blah, blah, blah, blah.
So we don't have to say it
over and over and over again.
Because that's the really
annoying part because you're saying
this will be the first time
you've heard it, but I've said it
80,000 times before.
You've gotten to my airspace.
And so, yeah, I think the
advisories is going to be.
Is going to be super cool,
whatever that.
I would also love to be able
to check in with CFLDC.
I think that would save a
bunch of like you said like we talked
about earlier, like there's so
many people that you're busy.
If you could just be like, all
right, I see the check in.
I can click this, but I still
talk to someone else, you know, so.
That is a functionality as well.
So currently it's only contact.
So I send you a message.
It says, contact Houston
center on 124.7.
Okay, cool.
Change a center number.
1, 2, 3, fly level three four, zero.
With full services.
There's going to be a thing
called monitor.
And monitor talk is exactly
what it sounds like transfer, communication,
talk.
Click it.
It says, monitor Houston
center on 124.7.
You click OK, you confirm your
altitude that's on your panel, and
then it populates.
So we talked about that little
WI FI symbol.
It ticks on that WI FI symbol
automatically when you accept it
so that the controller knows
that you're on the frequency and
it's verified your altitude
because you've confirmed your assigned
altitude in your fms.
And then you don't have to
check on because you're there.
And we know that you're there
because the little WI FI symbol.
Now, if we have an altitude in
your data block that's different
than the one that's in your
autopilot, it's a red box, and we
have to go to voice and be
like, hey, just verify your altitude.
Okay, cool.
But for, you know, the
transcons, the jetblues flying from
LA to Fort Lauderdale and
Americans flying, blah, blah, blah,
just monitor, monitor, monitor.
You won't have to check on,
which is going to be great.
And it's great for us because
that cuts down on the talking, you
know, I love cpdlc.
It's, it's so great.
Yeah, we love it too.
We love it too, man.
More CFLDC.
Hit me up, please.
And then there's less
clearances that are read on Instagram
with cpldc, too, so.
Always works, but that's a
different conversation for a different
time.
Marcus, thank you so much for
coming on.
I appreciate it.
Your stuff's been blowing up
on my phone.
I feel like every time I pick
it up, it's always you.
And I'm like, hey, how do you
pronounce this dude?
Must really like cats.
I added, I added the
pronunciation on my Instagram because
a lot of profat.
Cat prop.
I was like, prop hat.
Atcat.
I think it's cat.
Okay.
I, I, I don't know where that
came from.
I like cats.
Oh, I know where it came from.
So if you have just like two.
More minutes, I'll give you three.
Okay.
NATCA does this thing at
Oshkosh every year, Airventure, where
they basically have a booth.
And it's kind of what we're
doing here, right?
It's pilot outreach.
We do presentations.
And then we're like, hey, if
you have any questions for controllers,
center tower, tracon, come and
ask them.
And I went my first time two
years ago, three years ago, and I
was like, you know, air
traffic controllers have the stigma
of being, like, kind of mean,
or they're like, Daunting, intimidating.
So how can I make.
How can I make myself less intimidating?
Because I'm a very
intimidating person.
I'm sure you're aware.
Very intimidating.
I'm scared.
And so I found this little
propeller hat, and I put on a little
propeller hat, and then we had
these vests.
That's like, ask an atc.
And so that's kind of where
the propeller hat is.
Because I was like, I don't
want to be intimidating the pilots.
I want them to be able to,
like, come up and laugh at me, which
is fine, but then actually,
like, ask me questions about how
can I be a safer pilot or how
can I use air traffic more efficiently
or things like that.
Yeah, and so that's kind of
where the prop hat came from.
And then cats.
I just like cats.
So it just kind of works.
And it just works.
Yeah, it rhymes.
It's easy to remember.
Yeah, easy to.
Easy to.
To think about.
But I'm not gonna lie.
I was expecting a few cats.
I've locked them out of my room.
They don't, like, whenever I'm
on the phone or on their very needy
cats.
They're Covid cats.
So they've.
They've learned of me just
being at home all the time.
So whenever I'm gone, they're
very, very sad.
Well, Marcus, I appreciate
your time.
Like I said, we'll have to do
this again, because I'm sure we could
just have a corner where you
could help answer questions and demystify
some common ATC things that
pilots get frustrated with.
Or maybe ATC gets frustrated pilots.
It goes both ways, right?
Yeah, for sure.
But I appreciate your time and
thank you so much.
Hey, thank you so much, and
congratulations on the magazine.
Thank you.
Appreciate it.
That's awesome.
That is wrap on today's episode.
Thank you so much for listening.
We are getting in the groove.
We are knocking episodes out.
I recently just did Ready for
Pushback podcast.
Nick came on my podcast a
couple weeks ago and he is releasing
it early.
Maybe not.
He said five weeks, maybe earlier.
But shout out to Nick.
Great things, Spitfire.
I love the interview prep.
So if that's out, if it isn't
out, check it out when it does come
out.
But AV Nation, I hope you're
having a great day.
Check out the magazine.
It's sick.
I hope you're having a good one.
As always, happy flying.